frinspar
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Post by frinspar on Feb 21, 2017 23:29:54 GMT -5
That's the impression I've derived. It's not parallel, but it seems to have the same dynamics.
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razkazz
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Post by razkazz on Feb 21, 2017 23:37:28 GMT -5
Does anyone like Vision in these movies? At all? I feel like Age of Ultron added nothing but dead weight.
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Post by frinspar on Feb 21, 2017 23:43:11 GMT -5
Visz has always been disconnected. I do like how he was created in the movieverse, and I think his "humanity" will come about in the Infinity Wars movies.
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Post by GhostRider5289 on Feb 21, 2017 23:45:51 GMT -5
Meh but I don't really give a shit about him in the comics either. I like Paul Bettany though sooo...*shrugs*.
Truth be told the only thing I know Vision from was the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon. Good show for the most part.
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Post by frinspar on Feb 22, 2017 0:04:11 GMT -5
He has always been kind of a lucky horseshoe eraser, but he's been ingrained irrevocably into the team.
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Post by razkazz on Feb 22, 2017 7:19:57 GMT -5
It also feels weird how everyone interacts with Vision. He's an AI given corporeal form. When in science fiction has an AI ever gained power and not turned into an evil asshole? I need to see him feared and studied before seeing him joked around with like everyone's old buddy for his character to work for me on-screen.
So far all we've seen is him immediately accepted, betrayed people unflinchingly on Stark's orders, and "accidentally" crippled someone. Yet Captain America is the bad guy for investigating terrorist attacks instead of going Guantanamo on every suspect. Fuck Stark. Black Panther's detective skills need work too. So far all he's been is an extremely bad Batman.
I guess that's the flaw of team-based superhero movies, they have to compromise characters' qualities to force the conflict of the story to make sense. Well, Avengers 1 did it right, I'll blame Feige as the one effing up the rest of the movies. Not that Civil War wasn't a blast, it's just they're ruining the characters and the more characters they add the worse it gets.
They should've crippled Hawkeye, killed Stark, left Spider-Man out forever because every bit of that seemed rushed, forced, and out of place, had Scarlet Witch knocked out by a brick or something the whole movie, locked up Vision, and given Black Panther a full movie separately to investigate his Dad's death instead of making him look incredibly stupid. And given Zemo a damn pink ski mask.
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Post by BeefEaster on Feb 22, 2017 8:00:34 GMT -5
all I want out of superhero movies is to see superheroes do superhero stuff and the movie definitely delivered on that
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NecroDragon
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Post by NecroDragon on Feb 27, 2017 18:38:18 GMT -5
I enjoyed Vision in Civil War thanks to Bettany's acting and I loved seeing him in live action for the first time in Age Of Ultron. I never thought I'd see Vision in a live action movie done well like that. When I first became a fan of him, our super hero movies were Pluto Nash, Steel, MANTIS, Batman & Robin, and shit like that. I figured it'd be better for someone not to try to realize any more heroes. Growing up on those super hero movies and one good franchise that was ruined - Batman - my hopes for cool live action Marvel heroes were dashed. I'm super grateful for the MCU, despite all its flaws. Props to Spider-man, and Blade, and X-men, too.
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Post by S. Griffin on Feb 27, 2017 19:08:17 GMT -5
all I want out of superhero movies is to see superheroes do superhero stuff and the movie definitely delivered on that I tend to also want good acting, good writing, stakes that feel real, and movies that seem different from one another. Seems like some of that's (or all of it in WB's case) too much to ask for these days. Fnuh.
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Post by okcomputer on Feb 27, 2017 20:43:06 GMT -5
Civil War had good writing, acting, and stakes. If it felt similar to other movies, it's because it was the third Captain America movie, and the culmination of story arcs that have been building since 2008.
Sorry to sound combative, but I still can't quite believe the MCU is a thing that exists and has been cranking out mega-hits for 9 years. When I was a kid reading comics and trading Marvel Masterpieces cards, we would fantasize about movies like we're getting now. A massive interconnected Marvel movie universe consisting of 14(?) movies and counting is just way, way too much fun for me to be a nitpicker about. The DC movies are another story, but the MCU is pure gold to me.
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Post by S. Griffin on Feb 27, 2017 23:13:03 GMT -5
What stakes? They were all mad at each other and drew lines in imaginary sand over horseshit, and they all pulled their punches when they fought. Nobody was killed (nobody of consequence, anyway). Nobody was even hurt except Rhodey, but he got cyberlegs or whatever by the end of the movie, so he'll be just fine. No worries. Everybody's okay. And there were no lingering hard feelings, not really. Cap quit the Avengers, but he said he'd be around if needed. People got put in super prison, but he busted them out, if I recall. I thought it was generally well written for something that ultimately proved safe, and the acting was top notch, save maybe Tom Holland (I suppose his dialogue coach is more to blame than he is. If they even hired him one); I'm not disputing that. Please tell me what the stakes were. Also please explain Zemo's plan in a way that makes sense.
And I'm sure I do sound combative. I was ultimately disappointed by this movie and while I was kept engaged while I watched it the first time because it felt, at the time, like something might really happen to one or more of them. When nothing did, not really, the whole damn thing felt really futile. And these movies are all running together for me at this point. (That's a personal thing for me, BTW. If you still love all these movies, then great. Just don't take it personally if someone else is getting tired of the same old same old) Thank God for Guardians of the Galaxy and James Gunn.
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Post by okcomputer on Feb 28, 2017 11:07:31 GMT -5
Zemo's plan was pretty convoluted, but all the pieces are there in the movie to figure out his whole strategy. At the end of Cap 2, Black Widow releases all the HYDRA files onto the internet, and after Zemo loses his family during the Avengers vs Ultron fight in Sokovia, he starts digging through the files for something he can use. He finds the Winter Soldier files, and presumably notices that one of the Winter Soldiers was an old ally of Captain America, who also happens to be the one who assassinated Tony Stark's parents. He tracks down Bucky's old HYDRA handler and gets the book of activation phrases. Then he frames Bucky for the bombing at the UN, which he knows will bring tons of heat down on Bucky. He kills the German doctor tasked with interrogating Bucky, and once he gets brought in he impersonates the shrink to get some face time with Bucky, just long enough to use the activation phrases. All of Zemo's moves up to this point have been to get face to face with Bucky to find out what happened in 1991 (a date he's suspicious of, because he knows when Stark's parents died). After the interview, Bucky escapes with some help from Cap and they both head to the old HYDRA base in Siberia, and Zemo slinks away in all the confusion. Then there's the big airport where find where Cap and Bucky escape while the rest of their team is captured, Tony finds out from Falcon where they were headed and what they're looking for, and heads off after them since he's afraid they're walking into a trap. Once he gets there, Zemo is waiting for them so he can unveil his endgame, which was showing Tony the proof that Bucky killed his parents, and that Cap knew about it. Zemo hated the Avengers for what they did in Sokovia in Avengers 2, but he also knew that since neither Loki and his alien army or Utron and his robot army could beat them, the only way to really defeat them was to get them to defeat each other. Things might seem to be all copacetic at the end, but Zemo is confident that his plan worked and the rift between Tony and Cap is there to stay.
I'm probably forgetting a few points, but that's what I can remember from watching the Blu-ray a week ago. Is the plan convoluted? Hell yes. Overly-reliant on convenient plot shortcuts for the plan to work? Yep, but then again so were the villains' plans in The Dark Knight and Skyfall, but that didn't keep those movies from being incredibly enjoyable and satisfying. Civil War is the same, for me at least. I love how it balances pure fun stuff like the airport fight and the Cap/Bucky/Panther foot chase, while also continuing and building on the themes of the earlier movies. And I don't know if this part was intentional or not, but I love that the entire plot revolves around the human consequences of the massive destruction these movies cause, something people wouldn't stop bitching about after Man of Steel. Marvel clearly knows what they're doing with these movies, even if some cracks might appear if you look really, really closely. Call me an apologist, but I'm more than willing to overlook a few small cracks when the whole package is as fun as these movies are.
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Post by S. Griffin on Feb 28, 2017 13:59:32 GMT -5
To be fair, Silva's convoluted ass plan took me the fuck out of Skyfall. Another thing that bugged me about Civil War besides Zemo's dumb plan (Just frame Bucky for the bombing and then leak the video, which somehow existed [seriously, who the fuck filmed that?], of him killing Mr. and Mrs. Stark. No real need for the middle part.) again goes back to the stakes thing. What in the comics is a huge global thing is brought down to a more personal conflict in the movie, but the filmmakers still want to try to keep it global, somehow, and that really wasn't well done, in my opinion. The shoehorning in of a forced and undeveloped eight-minute romantic subplot between Steve Rogers and Sharon Carter with the backdrop of all the bad shit that was happening, not the least of which was the death of someone they were both very close to, was pretty fucking dumb, too. Still tons better than anything WB/DC has come out with in the last eight years, so if you enjoy it, brother, good for you. I just don't any more. This pushed past my threshold a little.
And I wouldn't call genuine complaints about ignoring collateral damage in Man of Steel (fuck I hate that movie) "bitching." Snyder clearly paid no attention to the fact the Superman would be actually trying to save the city the whole time instead of destroy it the whole time, and not only didn't give a shit about casualties and all that, but he clearly thought the smashing and destruction was awesome. Because afterwards, Cal gets applause from the survivors and makes out with Lois.
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Post by okcomputer on Feb 28, 2017 16:15:44 GMT -5
Fair points for the most part. And yeah, one thing I noticed as being especially dumb was the surveillance camera footage of Tony's parents getting killed. Unless that was a road on the Starks' property, there's no way to explain how there just happened to be a camera at the exact spot where Bucky killed them. But I disagree forcefully (FORCEFULLY!) about the Steve/Sharon stuff. I loved that stuff. The romantic tension between them was set up back in Cap 2, and having them finally act on their attraction after the loss of someone they both loved made sense, I thought. Plus, the scene where they finally kiss gave us this: I love that.
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NecroDragon
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Post by NecroDragon on Mar 3, 2017 10:52:22 GMT -5
Sorry to sound combative, but I still can't quite believe the MCU is a thing that exists and has been cranking out mega-hits for 9 years. When I was a kid reading comics and trading Marvel Masterpieces cards, we would fantasize about movies like we're getting now. A massive interconnected Marvel movie universe consisting of 14(?) movies and counting is just way, way too much fun for me to be a nitpicker about. The DC movies are another story, but the MCU is pure gold to me. 's'what I'm sayin'. S. Griffin, curious, did you like Dr Strange?
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Post by S. Griffin on Mar 3, 2017 23:53:18 GMT -5
Didn't see it. Not interested.
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Post by okcomputer on Mar 4, 2017 0:48:03 GMT -5
You should. It's good.
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Post by GhostRider5289 on Mar 4, 2017 3:16:59 GMT -5
Yeah it is. Probably going to watch it again this weekend.
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Post by S. Griffin on Mar 4, 2017 10:57:54 GMT -5
I have no interest in Doctor Strange and in case nobody's noticed, it bothers me incessantly when someone from the UK (or Ireland or Australia) is cast in a lead role in something and told "do an American accent for some reason" (nothing inherently American about Steven Strange that I was ever aware of) and can't do it. Engelbert Vanderbilt is notorious for doing bad American accents in movies, and pretty much everything I've heard (including dialogue from the trailer) about this movie, aside from "it's trippy," is how fucking bad his accent is. I'm not going to sit through almost two hours of that.
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NecroDragon
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Post by NecroDragon on Mar 6, 2017 23:00:52 GMT -5
lol fair enough. Do you have a background in vocal things or are you just a more perceptive aficionado of all things vocal?
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Post by S. Griffin on Mar 6, 2017 23:22:28 GMT -5
Sort of both. I was kind of a theater geek in high school and tried to take as many classes as I could in college. I've always had a talent for mimicry and an ear for voices and accents, and I was doing impressions and characters going all the way back to my childhood.
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frinspar
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Post by frinspar on Mar 6, 2017 23:35:15 GMT -5
I can mimic voices and have an affinity for accents. And while I notice the people trying to do Murican accents who ain't what be from hereabouts, I can also revile at the Americans doing other international accents. I call it a wash and just fucking deal with it. Unless it's egregious, like the 5.5 seconds Costner tried it in his Robin Hood.
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NecroDragon
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Post by NecroDragon on Mar 7, 2017 0:05:47 GMT -5
I third the accent and voice thing. I once dreamed of becoming a voice over actor. Like frin, though, I just deal with it unless it's egregious.
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Post by S. Griffin on Mar 7, 2017 0:46:52 GMT -5
From everything I've heard, Bentobox Coddleworth's accent is pretty egregious. I can generally overlook stuff like Dominic Cooper's accent slipping every three or four lines on Agent Carter (fuck, I miss that show), but can get pretty OCD about things and this is one of them, so it kind of depends on how prominent a role the queenkisser has.
Also, nearly everybody doing a bad fake American accent in movies and tv was hired over an actual American actor because of a loophole in mutually agreed upon (by the studios and the union) SAG/AFTRA salary minimums. And before somebody chimes in with "Boo hoo. Some spoiled rich actor is gonna have to buy a Rolls instead of a Bently" (I've actually fucking heard that), this shit affects actors at all levels in Hollywood, and a lot of them, like the kid from Boardwalk Empire who was almost Spider-Man, aren't rich. That's right. Tom Holland is a scab.
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NecroDragon
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Post by NecroDragon on Mar 7, 2017 14:26:42 GMT -5
Eh, I didn't think it was that bad. My least favorite is Clive Owens' from Sin City.
The outsourcing of roles is a significant deal, though. I get that. It does suck.
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Post by okcomputer on Mar 9, 2017 14:55:58 GMT -5
From everything I've heard, Bentobox Coddleworth's accent is pretty egregious. I can generally overlook stuff like Dominic Cooper's accent slipping every three or four lines on Agent Carter (fuck, I miss that show), but can get pretty OCD about things and this is one of them, so it kind of depends on how prominent a role the queenkisser has. Also, nearly everybody doing a bad fake American accent in movies and tv was hired over an actual American actor because of a loophole in mutually agreed upon (by the studios and the union) SAG/AFTRA salary minimums. And before somebody chimes in with " Boo hoo. Some spoiled rich actor is gonna have to buy a Rolls instead of a Bently" (I've actually fucking heard that), this shit affects actors at all levels in Hollywood, and a lot of them, like the kid from Boardwalk Empire who was almost Spider-Man, aren't rich. That's right. Tom Holland is a scab. Just curious, have you seen Preacher? Dominic Cooper does a Texas accent on that show and it sounds fine to me, but I'm not as attuned to accents. Except for when they're REALLY bad, like Kevin Costner in Prince of Thieves or Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula. And I just listened to a BBC story on NPR about black British actors being cast as Americans in American movies. Apparently Sam Jackson was talking about it on a New York radio show, and he was a little peeved. They mentioned John Boyega playing an American-accented character in The Force Awakens and David Oyelowo playing Martin Luther King in Selma. I remember thinking at the time that casting a British actor to play MLK was an odd choice. I'm sure it's different for an American black actor than I white guy looking at it purely from a viewer's perspective, but it seems to me that if the performance is good then the nationality of the actor shouldn't matter. For instance, 12 Years a Slave is a masterpiece, and I never once stopped to think about how Chiwetel Ejiofor was actually British. His performance was so good that his nationality never even crossed my mind. Same thing goes for when Daniel Day-Lewis (another Brit) played Americans in his last three major movies. Maybe it's unfair to use actors as talented as those guys as examples, though. But I'm rambling... maybe the thing Sam Jackson is upset about, with black British actors getting cast instead of black American actors, is more the result of that studio/union loophole than something more racially motivated. But as a white dude I should probably check my privilege and sit this one out.
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Post by S. Griffin on Mar 9, 2017 16:15:58 GMT -5
Yes. So, I think I've mentioned this before, but British, Irish, and Australian actors have frequently commented that the it's easier for them to do Southern US accents and North Eastern US (primarily New York, New Jersey, and Boston) accents because of similar sounds among all of those dialects like long vowels and soft r's. It's part of what made it possible for Margot Robbie to do a flawless Long Island New York accent in Wolf of Wall Street, and why it was so confounding that Ayer wanted her to try a neutral accent for Harley Quinn of all characters (just one of many confounding decisions that made that movie what it was).
I'm white, so I can't speak from any real personal experience, per se, about African American actors, but I do know one (my sister dated Bokeem Woodbine before figuring out she was completely gay), so I'm going to carefully try to speak a little bit about the Sam Jackson thing, based on what I know, what I've heard, and what I have seen. Some of it probably is the Union thing (you mentioned Daniel Day-Lewis, who has been working in American movies so long he is a SAG/AFTRA member), but the other part I'm sure is that African American actors are still kind of second class in Hollywood and frequently have lousy role choices, if a production even has an African American role in it. It's gotten a lot better in recent years, but when a more prestigious African American role than "Pimp" or "Gangbanger #1" or "Drug dealer #2" pops up, and it goes to an actor who's not African American, it must sting a little bit for those actors who have been busting their asses in the thick of it over here and doing everything they could to push for better roles over here and presumably in some cases, even went out for those very roles themselves. And then it does circle back to the Union thing. In many cases, non-American actors are hired for American roles over American actors to save money, and not because that actor was necessarily better than everyone else who read for the part(to be perfectly clear, I am not saying that David Oyelowo, John Boyega, and Chiwetel Ejiofor aren't amazing actors and weren't perfect in those roles).
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Post by okcomputer on Mar 9, 2017 16:45:09 GMT -5
Another example I didn't think of until after I posted is Ruth Negga in Loving (which I haven't seen but have heard good things about, and Negga got an Oscar nomination for it). Negga is a talented actress, but she's Ethiopian-Irish. That's one instance where I probably agree with Sam Jackson. The Loving v Virginia case was a landmark event for civil rights in the US, and hiring an Ethiopian-Irish actress and a Australian actor to play the two leads seems a little bit screwy. Not to say Ruth Negga and Joel Edgerton aren't good actors, because they clearly are, but using American actors for a movie about such an important event in 20th century America might have been a better way to go.
But then again Meryl Streep plays British women all the time, so maybe it's a wash.
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Post by S. Griffin on Mar 9, 2017 16:56:57 GMT -5
That's Meryl Street, tho, man. She's got so much fucking gravitas they nominate her for an Oscar every year because it just seems right, even when the movie is shitty.
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